Making melee more usefull

[TheDruid]

There’s an interesting thread going on at the HeroscapeHQ boards where a guy wanted to know how to make a map that balances range and close combat.

http://www.heroscapehq.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=55546#55546

He got some pretty interesting responses like, giving melee units the option to move twice in one turn by forfeiting their attack.

Could be useful, although i wouldn’t make it rule that’s enforced all the time, but it would have been a great modification for our last uber game where the melee units got shafted because of the big hill.

[Shayne]

After talking to Druid about this during lunch, concider the vipers...they can move 8, and can frenzy...adding in double movement you could do a heck of a lot with a successful roll meaning 32 movement (assuming no attacking).

I like the idea.  However it sorta cheapens range in that the point of it is being able to attack before they get to you.  An Agent with a range of 6 would almost certainly be engaged all the time...

perhaps it makes engagement to powerful?

Roads...now thats what we need.

[TheDruid]

On the boards they are calling it “Sprint”, and I still think it could be usefull, but instead of two full movements, what if it was 1.5x movement. So take your average 4 movement melee unit. If he chooses to sprint, the whole card has to sprint that turn and your forfeit your attack round. But you do get to move 6 spaces instead (4 x 1.5 = 6)

[TheDruid]

You would also only get the bonus on normal movement. So in the case of the vipers the bonus would be applied to the base 7, then you would add the other bonus (warload, or movement glyth) i.e Viper with a +2 movement glyth, and the warloard would be calculated as 7 x 1.5 + 2 + 2 = 14 (you always round down)

The bonus would not stack with frenzy, because your taking the extra movement in lieu of the attack round, it’s not considered normal movement round. So maybe given the above viper scenario it would be better calculated as:

Normal move: (7 base) + (2 glyth) + (2 warload) = 11 x successful frenzy roles
Attack round: Use Sprint ability; (7 base x 0.5) = +3 movement (round down)
End of turn

What do you guys think?

[Ustauk]

It sounds reasonable.  Its almost like double moving in a D&D round, and the mechanic seems to work well enough there.  Though you might want to consider giving the Agent's the range bonus back if a player hits that glyph, since it would be easier to get at them now.  Would a movement glyph be used in the double move calculation, or excluded?

[TheDruid]

Excluded, as stated above, the bonus movement is awarded during the attacking phase, and is only calculated on the base move. That way the calculated bonus will only ever be between +2 to +4 movement due to tat fact that base movements range mostly from 4 – 8.

[Thorin]

The question is, are ranged and melee units balanced on a typical map?  If so, messing with abilities for either could make that type of unit too useful.  Are there map configurations that will make one or the other unit type better to deploy?  Sure.

From my experience, the thing you have to ask yourself is, "If I change/add this, will it become something that no one in their right mind would go without?".  If the answer is yes, then it unbalances gameplay in favour of whatever change you made.

Why not try to invent tactics that minimize the weakness (in this case having to close before being able to do damage), rather than change the rules of the game?

[Shayne]

I dunno.  I really think this cripples the ranged.  The more i think about the more this "fix" is a "fix" of the agents as the rest of the ranged isnt out of balance.

[Shayne]

Druid [3:22 PM]:
Hmm, its not really an attempt to try and further balance the agents. Rather then a solution to long agonizing movement of melee units into the battle, expecially on hilly maps

Druid [3:23 PM]:
a +2 - +4 movement in lieu of attacking is a nice little bonus that gets a melee unit into the battle quicker, but they definatly are being empowered

Druid [3:25 PM]:
really, my only problem is the movement advantage range gets when they are high up. being that a unit may technically be only 3 ranged spaces away, but due to elevation differences, will take 10+ movement points just to be enguaged.

Shayne [3:31 PM]:
all the more reason to draft YOUR OWN RANGED OR FLYING.  I really dont see this as an issue, its really trying to give those with a poor draft some sort of ability.

[Melbosa]

I thought I should let the Moderators know, that this General Category is exposed to the public internet, as per the reorg structure of the forums (was in the post I made).  So you might want to moderate your posts for peeps names vs handles?

[Shayne]

Good call, i keep forgetting that the generals are "see everything".  Updated.

[Thorin]

i keep forgetting that the generals are "see everything"

How else would I, part of the great unwashed masses that don't play Heroscape yet, have been able to weigh in with an opinion?

[Lazybones]

As much as I hate the slower melee units when I pick them, fast melee units I think would be game breaking.

Take for example the new Wave 4 hero that can take wounds for extra turns. His movement isn't that great alone but with more than one turn he can close in on almost everything.

What about the Zettin guards.. They move only 4, being able to hit a target more than once before it arrives is part of there defence.. Send in a hard hitting melee like Sgt. drake or Agent Carr and they are smoked.

Increasing the movement of the melee is almost like doubling thier defence and damage in My opinion.

1. They will take far fewer attacks per round
2. They can attack atleast one round faster because they can catch, force engagment then attack.
There is NO loss of any benifits its 100% gain.

Also there are already ways in the game to rapidly move melee units.
1. The centor in the big hero pack can carrie one unit.
2. One of the wave 4 winged units had teleport.
3. And some units like the vipers, hounds, vikings ect have high movement bonuses with the right dice roll.

All other melee units seem to have extra defence or damage that would make them very powerfull with more movement.

[Thorin]

Druid [3:25 PM]:
really, my only problem is the movement advantage range gets when they are high up. being that a unit may technically be only 3 ranged spaces away, but due to elevation differences, will take 10+ movement points just to be enguaged.

So the old professors at West Point are right, ya gotta take the high ground

Possible suggestions (although I don't know the rules, so some or none of these might be good ideas):
- Find a place where you have cover from ranged attacks
- Move far enough away that the ranged attack can't reach you
- Attack the ranged attackers with all of your flying/ranged attackers (bonus: if you win, you have the high ground)
- Storm the ranged attackers with all your units to take them out early and lessen their impact on you
- Find glyphs/magic/whatever-they-call-enhancements that boost your defensive power or speed (for instance, immunity to ranged attacks?)

All of this would depend on the map configuration, of course.  And I'm assuming the map is random or semi-random.  So try to find the tactic that works best with each type of map configuration...  That's the fun in tactical battle simulations.

[TheDruid]

Bah forget it, I was just sharing the ideas that I was seeing on the HeroscapeHQ boards, where there’s a much larger audience of players. I figured if it was working for them, then maybe it was worth tossing around the idea here.

Seems like the forest expansion addressed some of these issues. Roads; although not as good as I thought they were help with the speed issue. But more importantly  Trees!

- Find a place where you have cover from ranged attacks

That was the problem, finding cover on the map use to be very difficult if not impossible. But with the addition of trees in the forest expansion, we found out last night how much cover they actually add. It was huge, I had a very difficult time with my snipers last night trying to get line of site. A lot of times I even wasted their turn because they had no target.